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The village shop and post
office had come up for sale.

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Someone suggested that I would be
the perfect person to take it over.

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I started my first job as
a postman back in 1965.

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And in 1994, I took
over the post office.

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I passed my interview, so,
yeah, I was given the position.

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And everything was perfect.

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We had a group of
pensioners who would come in

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to get their pension every week.

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Very much part of a community.

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28p, please, love. How much?

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You do get to know your locals.

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We'd have a good banter, a good
laugh with all the customers.

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It was really good.

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You're not only
their postmaster.

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You were also an
adviser to people.

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It was lovely.

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You felt like you were actually
the heart of the village.

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Morning. With you in
a minute. No rush.

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'It was idyllic.'

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I felt that I'd managed to
get myself a good position.

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As a postmistress,
it's not easy.

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'The idea was it would be
my retirement business.'

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'I thought I was gonna spend
the rest of my life there.'

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But I didn't know
what was ahead of me.

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I went through hell.

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'It was diabolical.'

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Something had to
be done about it.

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'Look, Alan!' CHEERING

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'Look what we did,
look what you did!'

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'Should the Post Office
bosses go to prison, too?'

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'No. No, no.

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'Hit them in their pockets.'

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Hit them in their pockets.

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That's what you want to do.

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That's... That's
what's gonna hurt them.

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TOBY JONES: This is the
story of a saga that began

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nearly 25 years ago.

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We were not mad, were we?

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Dealing with Post
Office has been harder

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than dealing with the mafia.

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It's like fighting
a steam roller.

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A group of subpostmasters
from all over the UK

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fought to expose one of the
widest miscarriages of justice

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in British legal history.

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We want answers now to know
who's actually done this

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to so many people, and why.

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NEWSREEL: 'There begins the
long chain of accounting,

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'and every ha'penny of every
transaction accounted for.'

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The Post Office was
established in 1660,

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and had always used paper
and pen to balance the books.

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But in 1999, management introduced
something completely new...

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a computer system
called Horizon.

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It was the biggest IT
roll-out in Europe.

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The Post Office connected 40,000
terminals across the country

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to one central hub.

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'An engineer arrived.'

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He screwed it on the desk,
and I asked him what it was,

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and he goes, "That's Horizon.

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"It's going live shortly,
you'll hear all about it."

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It was great, I was
really enthusiastic.

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I'd been involved with developing
bespoke software packages

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where I'd worked before,
and I was all for it.

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Basically, I never had a problem
balancing until that was installed,

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and then a couple of
months after that,

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I had a very big shortfall
at the end of the week.

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It said I was minus £2,000.

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Just overnight, £11,000 of
stamps had gone missing.

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I suddenly found I
had £6,000 shortfall,

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and I couldn't understand
where that had gone.

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That was a ridiculous amount.

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There was no way of going
back and checking stuff

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like you did with the paper,

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cos once you pressed
that button, it had gone.

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I rang the help desk,

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and they told me to
do various things,

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which doubled the
shortfall to minus £4,000.

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When I rang the helpline,

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I was told that there was nobody
else having these problems.

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Oh, yes, the helpline
was telling you,

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"Nobody else has got a problem.

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"You're the only one."

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"You're the only one
this is happening to."

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"You're the only one."
That's what they kept saying.

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Then I started feeling
like I was going mad.

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I knew I wasn't computer-literate,
but I wasn't stupid either.

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In the end, you were
totally confused,

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and nothing was done.

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Under the terms of
their contracts,

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the 20,000 subpostmasters
were liable for any shortfall,

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whatever the cause.

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When it got to
about £9,000 short,

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I told my parents and
my husband, and I said,

93
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"Can we re-mortgage
and put the money in?

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"Cos I've got no idea
what's happening,

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"but I've got to make it good."

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My mum went down to
the building society

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and drew it out,

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and we put it into -
the money into the safe.

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Every week, I was
putting money in myself.

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So, we basically went through
the cash until it all ran out

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to try and make up
the balance every day.

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It was just up and
down, up and down.

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It was never, ever right.

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And on the end of the month when
we had to do the main balance...

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that's when it all used
to come out, like...

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Where's this money gone?

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And the amount kept growing,

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so I then didn't say anything.

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I kept quiet and let
it grow to £36,000.

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Terrified of what
was gonna happen.

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In North Wales,

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one subpostmaster took
a different approach.

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I had £1,000 of shortfall,

114
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and I've never been
accepting the figure

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that Horizon had
thrown up each week.

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Because I always felt
that if I cleared it,

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I was accepting the
Horizon system's figures.

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And I wasn't
prepared to do that.

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Eventually, they got
round to telling me

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I had to do it or else.

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And I said, "I won't do it, not
until I have access to the system."

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And eventually, they decided
just to terminate my contract

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without giving me any
reason, and that was it.

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So, they walked off
with my life savings

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and they decided to give my
post office to somebody else.

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Horizon just created a
whole batch of worry,

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not just for me,

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but for subpostmasters
all over the country.

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I shall probably clean
at least till I'm 70-ish.

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I'm resigned to the fact that
I only have the state pension,

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and unless I sell my house,
I need to keep working.

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The Post Office used
their sweeping powers

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to bring private prosecutions
against their own employees.

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In 2003,

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they went after Jo for the
money they said she'd stolen.

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I was originally
charged with theft,

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and I pleaded not guilty.

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And we almost got to trial,

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and they offered up a plea
bargain at the 11th hour,

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And said, "Well, if you plead
guilty to false accounting,

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"we'll drop the theft charge,
provided you repay the money."

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That meant Jo was
forced to borrow

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00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,800
in order to pay back the £36,000
the computer said was missing.

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I could only raise
£30,000 on the house,

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so we had a village meeting.

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And I had to
explain to everybody

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that I was in trouble
in the Post Office.

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And someone put up their
hand and they said,

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cos it was November, they said,

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"Well, couldn't Jo have an
early Christmas present?"

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And from the moment I told them,

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I thought they were all gonna think
I'd stolen money, and they didn't,

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it was quite the opposite,
and, erm... yeah.

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It was very humbling.

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Literally thousands of pounds
went through the letterbox.

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I think we'd reached it in
about two weeks, and... Yeah.

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INTERVIEWER: Wow. My village.

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When she went to court, the
village showed up again.

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I just looked at the judge,

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and he goes, "Well I'm not
considering a custodial sentence."

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Well, I was literally...

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Just the tears were
streaming down my face.

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Jo was sentenced to a
12-month supervision order.

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But there were other people whose
ordeals left an even greater mark.

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'We had a lot of
happy memories here.'

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Especially when the children
used to come off the bus.

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We used to look forward to
seeing them after school.

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They used to come
running across this road.

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Yeah.

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'They enjoyed
being here as well.

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'Would've handed
it over to them.

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'A lot of happy memories.'

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But they all got broken.

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In 2009, the Post Office charged
Jess with the theft of £5,000.

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00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,960
And her face was splashed
across the local papers.

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Family members actually went
round to the shops, local shops,

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00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,959
and gathered as many
papers as they could.

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00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,959
It was also in one of the
Punjabi papers as well.

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So, basically, everybody read
that story and pointed fingers.

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00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:28,960
We had somebody come in and
spit on the floor as well.

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00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,319
We had car windows broken.

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You know, they did try and,
like, traumatise us, really.

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I got this feeling that
everybody else is thinking

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that "she's a thief".

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And thinking about it day
and night, day and night.

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I just wanted to end my life.

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I'm showing you the box.

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We can cross quickly.

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00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,959
And this is where
the Post Office was.

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00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,639
Noel Thomas became a
postman at the age of 17.

191
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,959
In 2005, when his
nightmare began,

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00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,959
he had only ever worked
for the Post Office.

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00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:21,959
There we are.

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00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,959
We're by the box which
was the Post Office

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00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:30,960
that my wife and I ran
for, erm, 36 years.

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00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:36,800
You know, it was a betrayal,
wasn't it, when we lost this?

197
00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,959
At half past seven, there
was a knock on the door,

198
00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,959
and, er, there was a lady
and a gentleman in the door,

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00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,959
and said they were Post Office
auditors, and so I let them in,

200
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,959
made them a cup of tea, and I
told them straightaway that I was,

201
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,960
erm, about £52,000 down,
so all hell let loose.

202
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,480
Noel was arrested and
questioned at a police station.

203
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,959
She was just, "Where was the
money? Where was the money?

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00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:11,960
"And what did you do with it?"

205
00:12:11,961 --> 00:12:14,320
You know, it was
really aggressive.

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00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:17,959
Then the Post Office did to Noel

207
00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,959
what they did to many
other subpostmasters.

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00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,799
They offered to drop
the theft charge

209
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,960
if he agreed to plead
guilty to false accounting.

210
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,959
I remember me telling him,
"Will it keep me out of jail?"

211
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:34,960
And he said, "Yes."

212
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,639
But unfortunately,
when I went into court,

213
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,959
er, the judge, erm, came
to his sentencing words,

214
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,959
and he said, erm, "Nine
months," and he sort of paused.

215
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,959
And I waited for a
suspended sentence.

216
00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,160
But he said, erm,
"Take him down."

217
00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:05,959
'I'd been a councillor,
I'd been a postmaster,

218
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,960
'I'd been a postman and,
er, highly thought of.'

219
00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,959
All of a sudden, er, it
was all taken away from me,

220
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,960
like taking a mat from under
your feet, if you like.

221
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:21,960
It was bloody horrible.

222
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,959
'My journalistic life has
been dominated by this.'

223
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:43,959
I mean, it's the biggest
story I've worked on.

224
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,320
It's probably the biggest
story I'll ever work on.

225
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,959
In 2009, the story
hadn't hit the press yet.

226
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,959
Social media was in its infancy.

227
00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,959
Even though many subpostmasters
were being prosecuted,

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00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,960
each one of them thought
they were the only one.

229
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:07,959
But that was about to change.

230
00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,159
This particular article began

231
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,959
because we were contacted by a
subpostmaster about his problems.

232
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,959
Often when you get contacted
by a single person,

233
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,799
it's very hard to
stand up a story.

234
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,959
But one of my former colleagues,
an alarm bell rang in his head,

235
00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:23,959
and he thought, "I've
heard this before."

236
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,959
And I think it was
four years earlier,

237
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,959
he'd been contacted by Alan Bates,
who'd had the same problems.

238
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,799
Then they started to
build up a picture.

239
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:33,959
People having the same problems,

240
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:35,959
people being told the same
thing from the Post Office,

241
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,959
which eventually led to
them gathering information

242
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,959
about four other subpostmasters
and doing this first story.

243
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,959
But we were so worried
about legal action.

244
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,960
We didn't publish it for a year.

245
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,960
This was the response
from the Post Office.

246
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:04,959
That was an outright lie.

247
00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,959
We knew of seven postmasters
who had complained,

248
00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,959
and also, we know that
computers have problems,

249
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:11,640
especially complex systems.

250
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,959
Suddenly, subpostmasters
who had problems

251
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,959
were seeing the story,
contacting each other,

252
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:20,960
which then started the campaign.

253
00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,959
That's the seven
from Computer Weekly,

254
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,959
then there's, er, two
that came via our website.

255
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,959
But where are all the others?

256
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,959
So we thought, "Let's see if
we can get people together,

257
00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,959
"and let's see how big
the problem actually is."

258
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:41,960
Somewhere central.

259
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,960
Fenny... Compton.

260
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,959
We didn't know if anyone
was gonna turn up, but, er,

261
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,960
slowly but surely,
people turned up.

262
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:06,959
We all sat round in a
circle telling our stories,

263
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,959
and you almost felt embarrassed
about having to say,

264
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,959
"Oh, I'm Jo, and I've
been done for £36,000."

265
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,959
But I realised, "Oh, my God,
we're all exactly the same."

266
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:20,959
That's when the stories...

267
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,959
A jigsaw started coming together,
if you know what I mean.

268
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,959
And we'd all had our lives
completely tipped upside down.

269
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:31,959
People had been losing houses,
cashing in their pensions,

270
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:33,959
they'd been borrowing
money off relatives,

271
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,960
marriages were splitting up.

272
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,959
We all looked like
we'd been in a war

273
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,639
and just weary with the stress
that we'd been put through,

274
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:45,959
and the shame of it.

275
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,959
It was diabolical.

276
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,960
But that's when we knew something
had to be done about it.

277
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,959
And that's when we picked
Alan Bates as chairman.

278
00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,959
That was really the
start of everything,

279
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:01,479
and that's where the JFSA,

280
00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,999
Justice For Subpostmasters
Alliance, was born.

281
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:10,320
It was like a switch got turned,
and the Post Office was the enemy.

282
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,959
They'd gone from this
trusted brand to a monster.

283
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,960
And it was like, "We
are gonna get them."

284
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,959
This is the view I have
of him most of the time.

285
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:46,959
I mean, most mornings,
this is what he's doing,

286
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,960
and as you can see, he's
still in his dressing gown.

287
00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,959
TOBY JONES: For the past 20 years,
Alan and his partner, Suzanne,

288
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,959
have had their lives
dominated by one thing.

289
00:17:59,960 --> 00:18:03,999
The whole of this Post Office
issue has, er, turned into probably

290
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,960
the worst unpaid full-time
job you can imagine.

291
00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:12,959
I'm gonna do the cat,

292
00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,959
and I'll have her sitting
down on the carpet here,

293
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:16,960
looking up at him as if to say,

294
00:18:16,961 --> 00:18:18,959
"Well, when are you
gonna finish, you know?

295
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,960
"When are you gonna
take a break?"

296
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:28,159
Because you are hearing stories
of such distress and family ruin.

297
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,319
So you couldn't give up
working on something like this

298
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,959
because it developed
a life of its own.

299
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,959
And it wasn't just me.

300
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,960
Other people were
chasing their own MPs.

301
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,959
The good thing about
being an MP is,

302
00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,959
if you contact someone like
the Chairman of the Post Office

303
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,959
and say, "I'd like to meet
you to talk this through,"

304
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,959
they tend to respond.

305
00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,959
Erm, Mrs Hamilton? That's me.

306
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,639
James Arbuthnot.
Thank you for coming.

307
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,959
'He came out to the shop
and met my parents.'

308
00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:08,959
And he was just a
thoroughly decent guy.

309
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,959
There are two other cases
in my constituency alone.

310
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,159
Wow, really? It's
very odd, isn't it?

311
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,959
I thought, "There's something
obviously not right."

312
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,319
'And so I went to see

313
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,960
'the then Chief Executive of the
Post Office, Paula Vennells.'

314
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,959
We're the ones who are going
to keep the Post Office

315
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,959
as relevant and as loved and
as trusted in the communities

316
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,959
that it is today.

317
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,999
Paula Vennells was hired
by the Post Office in 2007.

318
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,959
By 2012, she'd worked her
way up to the top job,

319
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,959
and used her in-house PR

320
00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,959
to highlight her commitment
to subpostmasters.

321
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,959
I say this very
specifically, actually,

322
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,959
putting our subpostmasters

323
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,959
and the colleagues who
work in our agency branches

324
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:56,960
right at the forefront of
everything we think about.

325
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,959
It was Paula Vennells who
suggested that what we needed

326
00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,959
was forensic accountants
to go into the allegations,

327
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,799
and we said, "That's
exactly what we need.

328
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,800
"Who would you recommend?"

329
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,959
Ron Warmington
runs Second Sight.

330
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:20,959
I was Head of Investigations

331
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,959
for one of the world's
biggest banks for many years.

332
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:23,999
And now I'm meant to be retired.

333
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,960
The only reason I'm not retired
is because of this case.

334
00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,960
Ron's investigation was paid
for by the Post Office itself.

335
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,959
But, obviously, we had
very serious concerns that

336
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,640
it's gonna be a
bit of a whitewash.

337
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,959
So Alan and the MPs brought in
their own top forensic accountant.

338
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,959
RON: Kay Linnell flew
at me like a tigress.

339
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,639
I don't doubt your
paper qualifications,

340
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,319
I have them here in front of me,
but I see nothing to persuade me

341
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,959
that Second Sight
is remotely capable

342
00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:01,959
of producing a truly
independent report.

343
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,479
Clearly suspecting that either
we were hired to do a whitewash

344
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,959
or that we'd be
hopelessly incompetent -

345
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:10,800
probably, she thought both.

346
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,479
The involvement
with the Post Office

347
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,959
started with Jo Hamilton,
my local subpostmistress.

348
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,959
Kay volunteered to help
the subpostmasters.

349
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,959
I had no idea how
long it would take,

350
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,999
but I knew we had a room of
people who had lost everything

351
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:28,959
or were losing everything,

352
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,959
and people were still being
prosecuted almost on a daily basis.

353
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,959
And I knew we had
to do something

354
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,960
to try and stop the tide
or raise the profile.

355
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,959
She clearly was exactly
the person we needed.

356
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,959
Having had that meeting
with Ron and Ian,

357
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,959
which I suspect
they will remember,

358
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,960
I was satisfied they would
do an independent job.

359
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,959
Ron's team began their
investigation in 2012.

360
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,479
At that time, the
Post Office continued

361
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,960
to prosecute subpostmasters.

362
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,800
Basically, I was told I was
going to get two years in prison.

363
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,959
In the West Midlands,

364
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,959
Jess was convinced a faulty
PIN pad on her Horizon terminal

365
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,959
had caused the shortfall.

366
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:30,319
And she pleaded not
guilty to theft.

367
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,960
But the case dragged
on for three years.

368
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,959
Went to numerous courts
up and down the country.

369
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:40,959
In Wolverhampton Crown Court,

370
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,959
the judge said,
"Where's the PIN pad?"

371
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:44,959
And the Post Office said,

372
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,959
"The PIN pad's been
taken away for repair."

373
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:49,959
And so the judge said, "Well...

374
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,479
"If it's gone for
repair, it was faulty."

375
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:55,960
That's when it all got
thrown out, basically.

376
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:00,959
By then, the damage
had been done.

377
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,959
The stress that
we'd been through,

378
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,319
the trauma that we'd been
through, lied to, bullied,

379
00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:09,959
it all mounted up, and
I ended up in hospital.

380
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,160
And I-I went to commit suicide.

381
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,320
I even tried to commit
suicide in hospital.

382
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:25,959
Jess was so ill,

383
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,960
the doctors decided to treat her
with electroconvulsive therapy.

384
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,999
All I remember is they
used to put this...

385
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,959
Like a helmet type
thing on my head.

386
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,959
And the shockwaves were
going through my brain.

387
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,640
So I had... I think I had
14 treatments like that.

388
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,960
After that, I lost
all my memory.

389
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,960
I don't remember anything
from my childhood.

390
00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,959
I couldn't sleep unless
I had sleeping tablets.

391
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,960
Put me on numerous medication...

392
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,959
which I'm still on today.

393
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,960
And it's all down
to the Post Office.

394
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,479
During Ron's investigation,
it became clear

395
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,960
the Post Office had some
serious questions to answer.

396
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,959
There were documents which
looked extremely suspicious,

397
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,319
very poor investigative
processes that were directed

398
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:38,479
blatantly at simply
recovering assets

399
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,959
by trying to get the
easiest conviction possible,

400
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:44,959
which generally was
false accounting,

401
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:50,960
using as a cudgel, bluffing
that they had a theft case.

402
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,959
I'm pretty used to being
able to detect crooks.

403
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:57,960
But when I really dug deeper,

404
00:24:57,961 --> 00:25:00,640
I didn't find any
evidence of theft at all.

405
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,319
We didn't know whether the
investigation would work,

406
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,479
but the very fact that they had
access to Post Office's data,

407
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,799
erm, seemed quite promising.

408
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,959
And at that time,
we did understand

409
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,960
that Post Office... did actually
want to get to the truth.

410
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:28,960
I felt we were
getting somewhere.

411
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,960
Ha, little did I know how
long the journey was gonna be.

412
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:54,159
Remote access to the system
was always a huge concern.

413
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:55,959
And the reason why

414
00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,959
was it meant that someone else
could be accessing your accounts

415
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,960
on your counter in your Post Office,
and you did not know about it.

416
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,959
When the Post Office rolled
out their new computer system,

417
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,959
every subpostmaster's computer
was hard-wired to a central hub.

418
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,959
This was located at the
headquarters of the company

419
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,960
who designed and managed
Horizon, Fujitsu.

420
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,959
Post Office were quite
adamant that no-one else

421
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,959
could ever access the systems
or do anything like this at all.

422
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,319
And that was something

423
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,959
that we wanted Second Sight
to prove had occurred,

424
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:39,960
or how it had occurred.

425
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,159
I went to Fujitsu headquarters
with the intention of helping

426
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,479
and looking at the system,

427
00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,960
and how we accounted for bureau
de change within branches.

428
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:01,959
Er, Michael Rudkin
to see George Delph.

429
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,960
That was the
purpose of my visit.

430
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,959
'I arrived, as scheduled, about
ten o'clock in the morning.'

431
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:10,959
Cheers. 'Went into reception.'

432
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,959
Mr Rudkin, George Delph, hi.

433
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,959
'Within a few minutes,
my chaperone arrived.'

434
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,319
I was really taken aback by
the number of security doors

435
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:21,960
that we had to pass through.

436
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,959
I was encouraged to enter into
the boiler room by my chaperone.

437
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,959
And in doing so, I then recognised
to the right-hand side of me,

438
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,999
there's two Horizon
terminals on this workbench.

439
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,159
One of the guys not happy with my
presence gets up and walks out.

440
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:40,959
My chaperone said,

441
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,959
"This is my covert operations team
and my covert operations room."

442
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,959
He proceeded to enter into
this particular account,

443
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,959
and he started, er,
altering figures,

444
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,959
which I said to him,
"Is this real-time?"

445
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:56,959
He says, "Look,
I'll just prove it."

446
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,959
He says, "I'll alter the Euro
figures in this branch's accounts."

447
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:04,959
You're inside some subpostmaster's
Horizon, and he doesn't know?

448
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,959
In total disbelief, I said,

449
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,959
"Are you sure you can alter
these figures in real time?"

450
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:11,959
And he said, "Yes."

451
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,959
I said, "Well, for
your information..."

452
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,959
I've been telling my
members for years,

453
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,959
no-one else has access
to their branch accounts.

454
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,959
' "And here you are proving that
you've got remote access." '

455
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:27,639
At which there was an immediate
look of disdain on his face,

456
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:28,959
and then ushered me out,

457
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,320
and more or less thrown
out as though I was...

458
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:33,960
a thief.

459
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,159
I said to Michael, "Your story
is really, really interesting.

460
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,159
"But Post Office, of course,

461
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,959
"will ask for evidence to
support what you're saying.

462
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,959
"So we need to find
the visitors book."

463
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,959
The so-called visitors
book that I signed,

464
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,479
ironically, is the only visitors
book that's disappeared.

465
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,799
"So, Michael, you need to have a
look through your email records

466
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,959
"to see if you can find the
invitation that came through to you,

467
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,959
"so get to it, Michael, I need
it, and I need it quickly."

468
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:09,959
I had a telephone
conversation with Ron.

469
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,959
I said, "I have the evidence. Are
you in front of your computer?"

470
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:15,959
He said, "Yes."

471
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,800
I said, "Well, I'm
pressing send now." I did.

472
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,799
The reply came back.

473
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:27,159
"Oh, my effing good God.

474
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,960
"They are now going to
become a hostage to fortune."

475
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,959
The day after Michael's
visit to Fujitsu,

476
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,959
Post Office officials
paid him a visit.

477
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,959
What come as an
even greater shock

478
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,959
was the orders that then
came into my bedroom at 8:30

479
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,959
that following morning, sat on
the edge of my bed, and said,

480
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,959
"You've got a £44,000
shortage in your office."

481
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,959
My wife, Susan, who's
managing the branch,

482
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,959
ended up being convicted with
300 hours community service,

483
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,639
electronically tagged
for six months.

484
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,960
She had to live through
and endure that experience.

485
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,960
In 2013, Second Sight published
their initial findings.

486
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,799
With Ron's report in
the public domain,

487
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,160
Post Office management
changed their approach.

488
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,959
Paula Vennells
rang me up to say,

489
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,959
"What we're proposing
is a mediation scheme

490
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,999
"between the subpostmasters
and the Post Office,

491
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,959
"with a senior judge
as the mediator.

492
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,959
"And that will be able to get to
the bottom of all these cases."

493
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,959
And I said, "Well, that
sounds right and proper.

494
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:51,160
"Let's go ahead with that."

495
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,960
Alan put forward 150
cases for the new scheme.

496
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,959
The whole process was only meant to
take X amount of months in total.

497
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,959
It was running into years.

498
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,999
You're supposed to go to mediation
with a willingness to settle,

499
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,959
but it appeared that the Post
Office was sending two lawyers

500
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,319
who turned up and said,

501
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,159
"You're out of time to make a claim,
it's over six years old. Forget it."

502
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,959
I think they were actually
uncovering the real truth

503
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:27,960
of what had been going on,

504
00:31:27,961 --> 00:31:29,960
and they didn't want to
come forward with it.

505
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,959
The Post Office has spent public
money on a mediation scheme

506
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,479
which they themselves
have set out to sabotage.

507
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,959
In Westminster, James Arbuthnot

508
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,479
was working hard to keep
the case in the public eye.

509
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,959
And they've broken their
word to Members of Parliament

510
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,960
in so many different respects
that it is frankly bewildering.

511
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,959
If you could just introduce yourself
for voice transcription purposes.

512
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,959
Paula Vennells, Chief
Executive of Post Office.

513
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,959
And then Paula was
called in to face MPs.

514
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,959
'People do not like appearing
in front of select committees.'

515
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,999
Because the select committee
may get to the bottom of things

516
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,959
that the witnesses may
prefer that they didn't.

517
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:20,959
Before the hearing,

518
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:24,959
Paula Vennells asked colleagues to
help clarify what she should say.

519
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:26,959
Here we go.

520
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,959
A copy of her email has
since come to light.

521
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,959
"Urgent: Accessing Horizon.

522
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,639
"Dear both, your help,
please, in prep for the SC,

523
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,160
"the select committee hearing."

524
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,959
That's obviously the
question she's being warned

525
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,960
she's gonna have to answer.

526
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,159
This is a system
that works well,

527
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,959
and it works well for the
vast majority of people.

528
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:14,959
For those it doesn't work
for, we are doing our utmost.

529
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,959
I've got Nadhim, and
then I've got Brian...

530
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,959
The MPs wanted to know why the
Post Office had been obstructive

531
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,639
during Second Sight's
investigation.

532
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,959
Paula, why don't you
give those files over?

533
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,799
What's the problem?
Erm, so, I...

534
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,959
I think the point I want to
pick up first, if I may...

535
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,479
No, just... No, answer
my question first.

536
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,959
Why won't you give Ian
Henderson those files? Why?

537
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,959
We have... As far as
I'm aware, Mr Zahawi,

538
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,959
we have shared whatever information
was appropriate on every single...

539
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,959
That's not what Ian
Henderson's saying.

540
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,959
It is the first time
personally I have heard that.

541
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,959
You're the head of
the organisation.

542
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:49,960
Will you provide it?
Yes or no? Simple.

543
00:33:49,961 --> 00:33:51,999
I'm not prepared, on behalf
of the Post Office...

544
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,959
Right, I've got my
answer, so you won't...

545
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,959
No, you haven't got your answer,
you haven't heard a yes or no.

546
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,959
I'm simply saying
that at the moment,

547
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,159
I'm not able to
answer your question.

548
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,959
'It was pointed out
to her time after time

549
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,959
'that she was in charge and
the decisions were with her.'

550
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,319
But it just seemed
to wash over her.

551
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,159
Well, this sounds
like a shambles to me.

552
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,639
You came in here, opened by saying
the system's working beautifully.

553
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,959
You now realise why you're in front
of the committee, is that right?

554
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,959
The system... The
reason... Ian said...

555
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,959
ALAN: I just couldn't
understand why, even after that,

556
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,959
she didn't take things on board
and actually be honest and own up

557
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,959
and actually try and resolve it,

558
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,959
which she should've
done far earlier.

559
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,800
I'm very sorry that I
can't answer that. It's...

560
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,960
JO: When I listened to the
evidence from Paula Vennells...

561
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:47,959
I realised what we were
gonna be up against,

562
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,319
and just what it looks like.

563
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,959
I have been told that we're
providing information.

564
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:55,960
It looks like it's a
massive corporate cover-up.

565
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,959
Then, a few weeks after the
select committee hearing,

566
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,959
the Post Office changed
their approach again.

567
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:09,159
Post Office dynamited the
mediation working group

568
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:10,959
and fired everybody.

569
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,959
I think at that stage,

570
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,959
she decided it was preferable
to cover up the injustice

571
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:25,319
and to allow these
subpostmasters to go to the wall.

572
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,960
And I think that's shocking.

573
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,960
We were growing information,
we were growing data.

574
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,639
TOBY JONES: For
more than ten years,

575
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,959
Alan Bates and his
team of campaigners

576
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,959
had been carefully gathering
evidence bit by bit

577
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:48,959
against the Post Office.

578
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,959
Because we had those documents,

579
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,959
there was a possibility then of
starting some sort of litigation

580
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,959
in the civil courts
against the Post Office.

581
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:03,960
If we could find a legal firm
to take it on board for us.

582
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,959
REPORTER: 'The
headlines this morning.

583
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,959
'A report has criticised
the Post Office for sacking

584
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:11,960
'or prosecuting subpostmasters

585
00:36:11,961 --> 00:36:15,479
'without establishing the
cause of cash shortfalls

586
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:16,959
'at their branches.'

587
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,959
Driving into work,
normal day, into Leeds,

588
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,959
and I heard a BBC
radio programme.

589
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,959
'If the cash recorded
by the computer system

590
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,959
'does not match up with the cash
that's actually held at the branch,

591
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,959
'then they are held
responsible for it.'

592
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,799
I thought, "There may be something
we could do about this to help,"

593
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,319
because it didn't sound right,
so I contacted Alan Bates.

594
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:41,959
I explained the case to him,

595
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,959
I showed him the type of
evidence that we had at the time.

596
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,959
And I explained we
had no money at all,

597
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,639
but we felt there
was a case there.

598
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,479
So I needed to weigh
up whether or not

599
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,959
we could raise the necessary
litigation funding.

600
00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:00,959
There are specialist funders who
are willing to take the risk,

601
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,959
but only if there
are enough of you.

602
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,959
Because otherwise we knew that
Post Office would outspend us

603
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:07,960
and we would lose.

604
00:37:07,961 --> 00:37:10,959
The only way that we were gonna
be able to break through this

605
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,959
and uncover it was a
full-scale group action.

606
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,959
Group litigation orders are used
when you've got very poor claimants

607
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,959
and they've got enough
similarity in their cases

608
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,799
that you can literally
fund one case

609
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,959
and solve a lot of
people's problems.

610
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,159
It was the only
way, and to do that,

611
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:31,959
we needed a much larger
group of postmasters.

612
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:33,959
How many would you need?

613
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:36,960
At least 500.

614
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,319
The meeting kicked off
a nationwide search

615
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:45,959
to find subpostmasters

616
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,959
who'd had problems with Horizon.

617
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,319
Eventually, 555 people pursued
a group litigation order

618
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,319
against the Post Office.

619
00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,319
The case against Post Office
was very much to expose

620
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,959
the way individuals had
been mistreated in there.

621
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,959
The lack of information that
was available from Post Office.

622
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,959
The flaws in the system
they'd never owned up to.

623
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,959
The denial that had happened,
the bullying that had gone on.

624
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:21,639
The abuse of individuals, the way
that they'd raided people's houses.

625
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,959
The way they'd been so high-handed,
God almighty, didn't give a damn,

626
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:27,959
their Post Office and they
can do what they want -

627
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:29,960
that's what we wanted exposing.

628
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,959
Alan had found the lawyers,
they'd got the funding.

629
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:35,960
And we were on.

630
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,159
Alan and the Justice For
Subpostmasters Alliance

631
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:45,960
finally took the Post Office to
court to seek financial redress.

632
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,960
Well, I went four days
after my mum died.

633
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,959
She'd said to me,
"Please don't stop."

634
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,960
And she said, "I'll be with you.

635
00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:01,959
"Wherever you are,
I'll be with you."

636
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,960
And, erm, yeah, four days
later, I went to court.

637
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:11,959
Among Alan's group
of 555 subpostmasters

638
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,959
were people whose lives had been
devastated by the Post Office.

639
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,959
Many had been bankrupted,
prosecuted or imprisoned.

640
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,959
Gathering enough evidence
at the beginning of the case

641
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,959
was challenging because Post
Office had the evidence,

642
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,959
which meant we were
having to build the case

643
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,160
with one arm tied
behind our backs.

644
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,959
But during the case, the Post Office
was forced to disclose evidence

645
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,959
they'd always claimed
was irrelevant.

646
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,959
So, what we've got here
is a known-error log.

647
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,959
So what this records is the fact
that there were internet problems,

648
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:48,960
network problems,

649
00:39:48,961 --> 00:39:51,959
which were causing the
error in the system,

650
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,479
which in turn were
messing up the figures

651
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,959
and causing a
financial discrepancy.

652
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,959
This particular example showed that
the transaction that had gone wrong

653
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,959
needed to be manually corrected.

654
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,959
They had teams and teams of people
doing it all day long, year on year.

655
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,959
Quite often in litigation cases,
in court cases, lawyers will say,

656
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,959
"Well, very rarely are we ever
gonna find a smoking gun."

657
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,959
These were smoking guns.

658
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,959
Not just one smoking gun,
multiple smoking guns,

659
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,959
which prove to us and
prove to the court

660
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,479
that there were multiple
problems in the system,

661
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,959
there had been from day
one when it was installed.

662
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,320
And that was why Post
Office lost the court case.

663
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,959
At the end of the
court hearings,

664
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,959
Justice Fraser delivered
a 330-page judgement

665
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,959
outlining his findings
on the Horizon system.

666
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,959
On the day the judgement
was handed down,

667
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,959
our side was totally
crammed with people.

668
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,959
The other side of the court,
there were just two people.

669
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,959
They knew what was gonna happen,

670
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,959
they knew which way this judgement
was going to land, and it did.

671
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:10,319
Mr Justice Fraser's
Horizon Issues judgement:

672
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,319
"This approach by
the Post Office

673
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,959
"has amounted, in reality, to
bear assertions and denials..."

674
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,479
"that ignore what has
actually occurred."

675
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,959
"It amounts to the
21st-century equivalent

676
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,959
"of maintaining that
the Earth is flat."

677
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,959
SHE GIGGLES Good
old Justice Fraser.

678
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,959
The judge said there seemed
to be a culture of secrecy

679
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,639
and excessive confidentially
within the Post Office.

680
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:37,959
THEY CHEER

681
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,959
We couldn't be more happy with
the judgement from the court.

682
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,959
This has been the result
of many years' work

683
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:48,639
to achieve justice
for over 550 people.

684
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,959
It was overwhelming. It was utterly,
utterly damning of Post Office,

685
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,959
and it just vindicated everything
we'd ever said about them.

686
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,959
The win was one of the
best days of my life.

687
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:02,960
The civil justice system in
the UK had got to the truth.

688
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,159
But the win came at
huge financial cost.

689
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:13,959
Although the Post Office agreed
to pay £57.5 million in damages,

690
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:14,960
after legal costs,

691
00:42:14,961 --> 00:42:19,960
the subpostmasters were left
with around £20,000 each.

692
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,479
But the civil court win did
enable the subpostmasters

693
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,959
to appeal their
criminal convictions.

694
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,959
These subpostmasters have not only
had their convictions quashed,

695
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,800
but they've been exonerated
by the Court of Appeal.

696
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,960
I'm not a criminal any
more, I'm a victim.

697
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:48,799
To date, 93 out of
736 subpostmasters

698
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,960
have had their names cleared.

699
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:58,960
The sun was shining,
and I was free.

700
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,959
REPORTER: How do you
feel now? Very happy.

701
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,320
At last, you could go home and
tell people you were innocent.

702
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,959
That emotion will...

703
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,319
It was like lifting
that big rucksack

704
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,960
with rocks on your back for
years, and getting rid of it.

705
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,959
Thank you, all. Let
him through, please.

706
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:27,959
You know, you could
just throw it away.

707
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,319
It was such a big, big relief,

708
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,960
cos the Post Office did a lot
of damage, really, to him.

709
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:44,479
It's something that we couldn't
fathom that was gonna happen to him.

710
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:47,799
I didn't have this many
people at my wedding.

711
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:52,959
But I'm seeing my dad coming
back now, you know, bit by bit.

712
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,799
So we are really grateful,

713
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,959
you know, that we've had this chance
to see that, cos not many have.

714
00:43:59,960 --> 00:44:00,960
CHEERING

715
00:44:00,961 --> 00:44:02,960
Well done. Well done.

716
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:09,959
God's got me through everything.

717
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:14,000
I just thought I wanted to bring
you here to show you as well.

718
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,959
I've built myself up.

719
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,479
I've made myself stronger,

720
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:27,959
and I want everybody to
know that I wasn't a thief.

721
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,959
I didn't rob the Post
Office, as they say.

722
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,960
That's what matters to
me, my name cleared.

723
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,960
And it needs to be told. Our
stories do need to be out there.

724
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,159
It's not just...

725
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,960
a little group of
people, it's hundreds.

726
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,960
Hundreds of people
have been through this.

727
00:44:58,960 --> 00:44:59,960
Everybody ready?

728
00:44:59,961 --> 00:45:05,640
A statutory inquiry has been set
up to find out what went wrong.

729
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,799
Would you not remember
something that significant?

730
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:10,959
I'm afraid I don't.

731
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,959
I'm sorry, I don't have an
awful lot of memory on that.

732
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,959
I don't remember that at all.

733
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,959
I know who should
be held to account.

734
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:24,960
I mean, it's the people who
have had a very cushy lifestyle

735
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:30,959
on vast quantities of money,

736
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:36,960
whilst they've made hundreds, if
not thousands of individuals suffer,

737
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:42,159
whilst knowing the real
truth of what's been going on

738
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:46,639
and denying the truth to
all these individuals.

739
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,960
Those are the people who
should be held responsible.

740
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:00,960
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